Finding a model for your next photographic shoot

About a month ago, I was in my local grocery store, and had just ventured into the produce department when I saw a woman with her back to me, and mostly what I noticed was her hair. It was very, very long. I appreciated what I saw, and moved along with my list. It was when I saw her in another aisle that I knew I had to approach the woman and offer her my card.

After I had made a couple of attempts to move toward her (it is still a hit-and-miss effort, even after so many years….), I persevered and walked to within a few feet of her cart. I politely introduced myself, and said that I had noticed her in the produce aisle and couldn’t get her out of my mind. Sounds like a badly-written song, doesn’t it? It might, but there really is no other way to explain the process, as it changes with each approach. After I explained the purpose of my “visit,” she quietly listened, accepted my card, and turned to do some more shopping.

It has been my experience that, for the sake of example, for each 100 cards I hand out to perspective models I meet, only about five respond, positively. The woman emailed me about two weeks after our meeting and said she would be very happy to shoot with me. I was extremely elated! When I first saw her face, I knew she would be perfect for my “Outlander” series. After we shot on an extremely windy and nasty day, my early hopes were met with sheer perfection. My new model was the epitome of patience, and followed my instructions perfectly. 

Even though the odds are against you, it is still something that is a neccesary part of the “process.” Some of my favorite models have been retained using this process. I am not a big fan of “professional” models. Many times, they come in with preconceived ideas of what to do and how to pose. I also don’t like negotiating fees. Did I get it right with this one? You be the judge, and let me know what you think. If you would like to see more of this portfolio, please go to my site

Before you rush into your local store, however, you really need to be prepared with a few things:
• Elevator Pitch
You need to know what you are going to say, in 100 words or less, when the moment comes. If you muddle through the pitch, your hoped-for model may turn and walk away before you finish. 

• Business Card
This is something you need to have with you at all times, whether you are scouting for a model, or looking for locations. For your card, you need to have a telephone number, email address and website address. If you don’t carry a current card with you, you are not very serious about your photography. Even if you print it out at home, that will work until you can afford a “real” one.

• Website
Many millions of words, in blogs, books, articles, etc., have been written about the importance of maintaining a decent site for your photography. It needs to be current, contain examples of your work, and show your perspective model that you can actually photograph models, professionally.

If you approach someone with whom you may want to work, and the site listed on your card is sluggish, overladen with graphic intensity, loud music, and the like, you will most likely turn the model away before they can get to the portfolio section. The site should be clean, easy to navigate, and present your work in an easy to access manner.

Are you ready to cruise the aisles with me? Share some examples of how you approach a “hoped for” model. If not, examine what you need in order to get going…

See you next time!

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Photo Tips on Working with Models

Last week I had an email from a very accomplished photographer, Marie Maher, who was going to be working with a model for the first time. Even though in her genre, surrealism (?), I don’t think she needs any coaching, I told her that I appreciated her email, and agreed with her that the first time one photographs a model can be daunting.

Do you work with a professional model. Do you trade or pay? What should he/she bring to the shoot? What should you have ready for the shoot? Where DO you shoot? Should you rent a studio?

As you can see, there are many choices, and while there have been a multitude of books written about the subject, one thing is sure, every photographic session with a model is different. With that in mind, here are some basic tips for your first time shooting with a model.

1. If you have never photographed a person for a particular project, set up a few practice sessions, first. If it is the model’s first time, she may be just as nervous as you. It is best that (for the first time) you work with no project in mind, just a “get to know you” session. Many times before I work with  new model, I will meet with her over a cup of coffee/tea/wine to discuss what we each may want from the session. It is easier to get to know each other in a “safe” place, rather than in an intimidating studio, or talking with someone with a monstrous camera in their hands. Once you “break the ice,” then you can go on to the session, itself.

“My models come from my circle of friends and fellow students in dance classes. I prefer models who pose from the heart and from the natural inclinations of their own bodies. I often use myself as a model. I’m available at the right times, and I know what the photographer is looking for.” Brigitte Carnochan, artist

2. Whether you shoot with a professional model or not, is entirely up to you. My recommendation (again, for your first time), is to work with a friend, first. That way, you are not on the spot to produce that award-winning image at the first get-go. If you plan a shoot with a model based on what was discussed over the phone or in emails, but don’t ”set up” the shoot properly, it may not turn out to be good session for either of you. Working with a friend can put you both at ease, and enable you to become more relaxed while working with people.  

3. Bring samples of what you might want to acheive from the shoot. If you are an artist and can sketch out what you have in mind, all the better. If not, go through some magazines that cover the subject and bring them to your meeting. Showing your model what you have in mind displays to the model that you have specific goals, and don’t just want to do a random shoot, with absolutely nothing in mind. Picking up appropriate books from the bookstore is a very good idea. In my photography book collection I must have a least a dozen books dealing specifically with portraiture.

“The model is not just a plug in person; they are an integral part of the photograph. Their personality, their movements all come together with the photograph to make a whole. I find that I need to photograph a model at least three times before a trust and willingness to continue can be achieved.” Kim Weston, photographer

4. When you are trying to decide where to shoot, keep in mind what you want the outcome of the shoot to be. Most of the time, a new model will probably want to shoot outdoors. This is fine. You should also remember that on this first attempt, you may not get any “keepers,” so it really doesn’t matter where you shoot. The point is to become comfortable with the model, and that can only occur when you have shot with him a couple of times. Don’t put all (or too many) of your hopes on the first session. Shooting outdoors, in a public setting, can put you both at ease. the model, because there may be many people around, and she may have a tendency to feel more at ease. And you can also feel more at ease, because there will be less pressure between you and your model.

“Preparation via one thoughtful and honest conversation can allow us to avoid wasting time with one awkward, unproductive shoot. Instead, I want to walk in feeling confident that I know what this person wants to see and having thought about how those wants translate into specific poses. This way, we can focus on refining subtle details about a pose rather than starting in a vacuum.” Rose Bryan (model)

5. To pay or not. For your first series of sessions working with a model, I think it is better to not book a professional. It could end up being a waste of time, for you, as well as for the model. You may not know exactly what you want, and the model will work off your “signals.” Again, working with a friend for your first couple of shoots is usually the best path to take.

6. It may be best to not plan on any wardrobe changes for your first session with a model. This will serve to put both of you at ease, and you can just work on posing, without having to think about which garment you may want next. The point is to work toward getting you both to a point where the session can go smoothly and without any additional stress. Believe me, there will be enough “uncharted” stress, without any being added by the pressure to get the clothes adjusted, or to think about when to make a wardrobe change.

So, these are just a few ideas to get you going, and, hopefully, to enable you to become more at ease in your effort to become the best photographer of people in the world.

All quotes are from “Poser: a sketchbook of ideas for artists and models,” Timothy B. Anderson, Cygnet Press, 2007.

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Photographing a new body

As many of you know, my main focus for quite a while now has been to photograph the female form. I recently began a new series, “Conversations with Sand,” which focuses on a new body, that of the shifting sands, and swirling forms, created by the mother of all mothers, Mother Nature! Over the years I have been periodically clicking my various shutters on sand, no matter where I have been, whether it be where the waters of the Mediterranean that tickles the Camargue on the southern tip of France, or at Discovery Park in Seattle, or on the high-desert dunes of New Mexico.

WS0511-69121.jpgI recently took a trip with my studio partner, the photographer Pat Berrett, to White Sands, New Mexico where there are more than 275 square miles of gypsum-based sand dunes. It was my first venture to that area. All I can say is that it was very much overpowering. As I stood on the tip of one of the dunes all I could think about was, “how am I going to photograph something so beautiful.”

Many times while photographing the female form, as I looked into my viewfinder, I was awed by the pure beauty of what was on the other side of my cameraWS0511-6914.jpg. I got the very same feeling as I viewed the compelling landscape that spread out before me. Because of the its sheer whiteness, it took me a few moments before I could get my settings the way I wanted them. But once I did, I was off and running! Pat went in one direction, and I went in the other. I walked around and over miles and miles of sand, creating images that I hoped would be worthy. It had nothing to do with Mother Nature, she had already done her part,  magnificently. I was humbled, at times, to be able to have this opportunity.

For all the walking I did I only came across one other living thing, a very small lizard (below), who looked up at me as if to ask, “What are you doing here? You’re standing on my dinner table.”  

As  the sun began to rise higher in the early summer sky, and the heat was beginning to wilt my already-fatigued being, I said a quiet goodbye to my little friend, and headed out over another dune-hill to find more forms to phWS0511-6892.jpgotograph, and more creatures to greet.

If, the last few months, you have altered your photographic style, why don’t you share your new adverture here? We are not in this alone, you know. One image can still replace a thousand well-placed words.

You can view additional images for my new series, here.

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Photographic lessons come from many sources

A few days ago I received the recently updated and expanded “I’d Rather Be In the Studio,” from Alyson Stanfield. I know I have extolled the virtues of the first book, on several occasions, but this new edition towers over its predecessor.

Since it has been rather blustery this weekend, I have taken it upon myself to go through the new book, and pull out some selected points of interest, that may serve to either get you motivated to progress in your field, or to get you off your butt and moving. I know that last phrase was rather harsh, but that’s how I “speak” to myself when I find that I am lagging…

For instance, I now produce several email newsletters, which have varying degrees of success. I found that at this point of time, it is not wise to sit on your supposed laurels, and relax, professionaly speaking. It is not good for you or your product. If you are interested in joining  the newsletter “movement,” here are a couple of pointers from the book that might serve to inspire you:

Plan It: Before you begin your newsletter, plan! Planning your newsletter well in advance of its appearance allows you time to get it right. Decide how frequently you will publish your newsletter, make sure the schedule is realistic for you, and add the deadlines to your calendar.

Name It: The title for your newsletter isn’t nearly as critical as the content. However, the title you choose should reflect your style or subject matter as well as the newsletter content. It should beg to be opened and read.
Fill It: If you have a good idea of your audience, you can better focus your content. If your audience is primarily young single women, your newsletter will be quite different from that of the artist who seeks portrait commissions from wealthy retirees. Regardless of your audience, your newsletter should have four core components.
 
There are a few more items to consider prior to beginning a newsletter, and I hope these bits and pieses will aid you in your photograqphic newsletter journey.  Alyson leaves almost no stone uncovered.

New to the updated book:
• Fresh chapter (21 pages) for applying Facebook and Twitter
• Revised blogging section for attracting readers
• Social media tips sprinkled throughout the book
• Updated and expanded resources

While some of you may think that this book would have little or no interest for you, I would argue that there is something in here for anyone trying to make a living in the creative world. I have only had this book for a couple of days, and it is alread dog-eared beyond recognition! This is a definite add to your marketing and promotion library.

While you are in the process of purchasing this great book, be sure to sign up for her ArtBiz Coach e-newsletter. I really don’t think you will be disappointed! Click on the link, below, for additional information on the book.

I’d Rather Be In the Studio

Listed below are some key elements from the previous edition, as well as new additions:
• 32 Ideas for when you need something to write about
• 26 Routines to stop procrastinating and start marketing your art
• 19 Categories for your art inventory records
• 15+ Stories from artists who implemented creative promotional ideas
• 12 Tips for dealing with the media
• 11 Rules for your marketing material
• 10 Steps for a more effective artist statement
• 5 Key elements of your fan page on Facebook and your Twitter account
• 9 Types of tweets on Twitter and how you can use each one
• 4 Tweet makeovers (and why)

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Photography Calls for Entry: What’s the value?

I just Googled “Photography contests,” and got so many links, I really couldn’t believe it. For those of you who read Red Dog News, you know that we cover many of the calls for entry: World Photography Gala Awards, Art of Photography Now, fotoblur, Santa Fe Workshops, Vermont Photo Workplace, Photography Center Northwest, Lightbox Photographic Gallery, SOHO Photo, and that’s just in the current issue! There are so many, I can only assume that it is a difficult choice to make when trying to decide which contest to enter.

What is your criteria for entering these contests?
• Prizes
• Cash
• Prestige
• Completion
• Ego
• Satisfying a Dare

No matter your choice from the above selections, I have a few suggestions to make that just might enable you to make an informed choice.
• Jurors
• Awards
• History

If you are considering entering a call for entry (CFE), and you have no idea who the judges are, just do a search on them. If there are no responses, you might want to take another look at that contest. Most jurors can be found somewhere in cyber-space. If you discover that the juror(s) are doing this for the first time, be sure to find out in which area they have the most expertise. Just because Bill Smith (pseudonym) is jurying the contest you want to enter doesn’t make him an authority. By the same token, however, Carol Lombard (pseudonym) has been jurying contests for so long, she takes naps during the jurying process. My suggestion is to do your homework and find out as much as you can about the jurors. Ask your friends. Email someone you met at a workshop.

The value of the awards is a good tape measure for the quality of the venue. If the value of the awards would barely cover your metro fare, then you can tell that the host of the contests hasn’t worked very hard at getting prizes. If a cash award won’t even cover your postage, you may have to think about this contest. An award should be enough (cash) to at least cover your basic expenses for entering and framing. Physical awards should go far in advancing your photographic career, be it a printer, software, equipment, etc. Unless the contest is for a good cause, the value of the prizes should make you say, “These guys (or gals) are serious about this!”

Everyone has to start somewhere. If the contest you are entering is their first, and you want to add to your entry experience, go ahead and enter. But if you have to keep emailing and asking for clarification of their rules and entry process, then… this may not be the one for you. Just as I suggested, above, do some homework. The time you spend in research, could be the difference between a good decision and tossing fifty bucks out the window! There are way too many contests out there that are good, for you to waste an inordinate amount of time trying to figure if the one you want to enter is good enough for your photographic treasures.

I don’t enter many contests, but when I do I want to be sure the CFE has appropriate value. I also want to make sure that an exhibition for the winners is assured. If accepted, will this add to your CV in a positive manner? Do you know anyone else who is entering the CFE? If you can go to the host organization’s website, take a look around. If it takes you forever to get to the page you want, that might be an example of their ability to run a photography contest.

If you are just starting out in your photography career, it really won’t hurt you to enter as many CFEs as you can. The bottom line is that the more you enter, the more experience you get in seeing what juroirs like, how each entry process works, and how to package your entries.

If you have any qyestions about calls for entry email me and I will try to answer your questions. So, take a chance, pick a few of your best mages and send them in! Good luck!

Posted in Photo Speak | 2 Comments

Connectors, Mavens, and Salespeople

Over the past few weeks I have participated in an online workshop, “Cultivate Collectors,” hosted by ArtBizcoach.com, and read the book Tipping Point, by Malcolm Gladwell. In the fourth section of the workshop, Connectors, Mavens, and Salespeople, the workshop leader, Alyson B. Stanfield “tips” her hat to Gladwell.

“In his seminal business book The Tipping Point, Malcolm Gladwell describes three groups of people that are indispensable to getting the word out about a new product. They are the ones who generate the buzz. They “tip” the product or idea—turning it from forgettable to highly desirable. He uses them to describe everything from the success of Paul Revere’s ride to health epidemics to the Hush Puppies shoe fad to young boy suicides in Micronesia.”

Stanfield goes on to describe what each of those terms mean:

Connectors: Connectors are, as Gladwell puts it, “masters of the weak tie.” They’re not our best friends, but we know their names and they know our names. Even more importantly, they know the names of lots and lots of other people and we “rely on them to give us access to opportunities and worlds to which we don’t belong.” They can connect us to people that might otherwise be beyond our reach. Equally as important, they enjoy playing their role.

Mavens: Mavens are fascinating creatures. Whereas Connectors are “Masters of the Weak Tie” (they know lots and lots of people, if only superficially), Mavens are “Collectors of Information.” They’re the ones who write into Consumer Reports to correct the articles. Gladwell adds: “What sets Mavens apart, though, is not so much what they know but how they pass it along. The fact that Mavens want to help, for no other reason than because they like to help, turns out to be an awfully effective way of getting someone’s attention.”

Salespeople:
Finally, let’s talk about Salesmen. Whereas Connectors and Mavens can help you get a foot in the door, Salesmen is that, on some level, they cannot be resisted.” Salesmen are the persuaders. Gladwell writes, “. . . the essence of the essence of Salesmen is that, on some level, they cannot be resisted.”

As described by both Stanfield and Gladwell, each of these people have their own benefit to your career. The key is to indentify each in your circle, and reach out to them, even if you have a very vague knowledge of them. It will be to your benefit to bring them in closer. Use them as contacts in your mailing (email as well as paper mail) list. Remember, each one of them knows at least 50 people, who know… and so on. Don’t be afraid, get that fishing pole and throw out that hook! You won’t be sorry.

How have your contact lists grown when you address people who are outside of your circle. Let me know.

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Cultivating Collectors works for photography as well

In a recent Red Dog News, I posted a challenge to readers to join “Cultivating Collectors,” an on-line workshop aimed at helping “us” get our acts together as far as attracting collectors. Well, as far as I know I only had one person who accepted the challenge. Bummer. Well, we are just past the halfway point of the workshop and I do have to tell you it has enabled me to look at how I do (or don’t do) the things I need to do to further my professional interests.

Cultivate Collectors

There are 59 people enrolled in the workshop, from all over the world. The artists produce a wide variety of work from sculpture to weaving to jewelry. Each day the leader, Alyson B. Stanfield, sends us a daily lesson in PDF format, which we can either print off or save, as well as an audio version of the same lesson. Then there are usually a couple of worksheets, as well. But (to me) the best part of the workshop is being able to read all the comments from the participants.

So far the topics have included: Personal and professional Assessment, Using Your Contact List, Following Up with Leads, Introduce Yourself, Your Action, and a few others. We have tackled blogs, Facebook, Twitter, Networking, and just about anything you can think of as far as marketing and promotion are concerned. At this aty only half-way through the class. Alyson is doing a great job of pacing the work so we have a few catch-up days, and our classmates are usually right on as far as helping provide answers, depending on their experience.

As one might expect, there is a lot of tasks to take care of, with little time to get everything done. Such is the challenge! Anyway, as we progress through the lessons the more I know I need to buckle down and get myself organized. Go figure.  

How are you organized to get the most out of your day? Let me know…

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Photographic inspiration comes from many sources

An American history of the nude as artOver the years, I have sought photographic inspiration from many sources: books, films, museums, etc. I recently picked up NAKED: The Nude in America (right), by Bram Dijkstra (Rizzoli USA, $45 2010), and I have to tell you, this book is a treasure trove of inspiration! Covering sculpture, painting, caricature, cartoons, and even a handful of visual extremists, and other forms of portraying the nude in American art.

The author is a cultural historian, rather than an art critic, refusing to separate “high” and “low” art, charting instead such momentous historical events such as the discovery of pubic hair, the invasion of the pin-up queens, “the inexorable rise of the breast” during the 1950s, and the puzzling fluctuations of American  prudery. (from cover end flap)

With more than 420 illustrations this is an incredibly wide-ranging representation and survey of the male and female nude throught American history. The back cover photograph is the iconic picture by Judy Dater of Imogen Cunningham preparing to photograph Twinka (1974, courtesy of the Scott Nichols Gallery). On the Title Page, Arthur Tress has a photograph of Twinka at Age 45. This is a good precursor to illustrate the importance photography has had in defining the nude in art.

Granted, American art has nowhere near the history of longevity as does European art, but what we do have is second to none, as far as art is concerned over the last several hundred years. As a photographer of the nude, once I received the book, I sat it on my desk, and about three hours later I turned the last page. While my collection of books about the nude numbers more than a hundred, Naked: The Nude in America, has quickly become a favorite.

What photographer of the female nude could not be inspired by the three images (left to right: Indian Maiden at a Spring, William Robinson Leigh; Elizabeth Gibbons with Umbrella and Mask, George Platt Lynes; Reflection, Benjamin rutherford Fitz) below:

This is a genuine coffee table book. At 10×11.5-inches, and the afore-mentioned illustrations in excess of 420, you are not going to be able to slide this one into your pocket. Be advised, once you put this book on your “must-have” list carve out some time that you can spend slowly turning its 476 pages. Buy Naked, here.

Do you have a book that you have, or are currently using for inspiration? I shared mine… it’s your turn. Let me know what inspires you to a much greater level of success.

Posted in Various Arts | 2 Comments

Photo-marketing 102

Many times I get requests to either submit my work to a show, or I get requests from prospective advertisers for the Red Dog News newsletter to announce either workshops or a  product. Much of the time these requests are ambiguous at best. Either there isn’t a clear “invite,” or the prospective advertiser is unclear about what it is, exactly, they want to sell.

In order for you to get the most bang out of your advertising/barter dollar, remember these few tips:
Be clear about what it is you are offering: If you are offering a workshop, use testimonials
Use images in your offer: A picture REALLY is worth a million bucks. As a photographer, you are in the business of pictures. Use them as much as possible.
Don’t clutter your offer with unecessary text or other material: Implement a prudent use of “white space.” Let the offer “breathe.”
• Make your offer as tempting as possible: Subtly ask the viewer to buy what it is you are offering.
• You will need to have a site/page that backs up the offer: This may be most important item in this list. When you make an offer you really do need to back it up with a nicely laid out site/page that clearly backs up the offer. If you don’t, people will leave as soon as they get there. 
• Don’t make it a multi-step process to get the info: As you know, we “surfers” don’t like to spent too much time trying to locate information. If it takes more than two clicks to get to the meat of your offer, I can almost guarantee you that you will lose up to 50% of your potential buyers. 
• Be as personable as you can in making this offer: If it is a new product or print, show an example of the item. Write your offer in language that reflects your personality. Don’t create copy that sounds like an ad agency wrote it. Make it yours!
Proof your copy as much as possible: This may seem like a no-brainer to most of you, but you can be rest-assured that all too many times copy is sent to me that is vastly under-proofed! Have other people read the offer. It is also a VERY good idea to have someone look at the offer who knows nothng about that offer.

This is just a simple list of some things you will need to think about when making an offer to a potential buyer. Can you add anything to this list? Don’t agree with some of the items on this list? What do you think is the most important thing to do?

Make a comment and we’ll see how many photographers agree/disagree with you.

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Starting your own photography salon

Over the years, I have attented a few salons, and found them to be helpful. For those of you who are unfamiliar Salonwith the term, let’s get that out of the way, first. A salon is a place where people can go on a regular (or semi-regular) basis to discuss the creative process of, or simply discuss and display, the work they do. One writer’s salon I attended in Washington state met on a monthly basis, and in the summer we spent a weekend at a cabin in the woods, honing our respective writing pursuits. It was a loosely-formed group, but when we got together we were very focused on working with each other to pinpoint areas for improvement.

“A salon is a social gathering of artists and intellectuals hosted at regular intervals by a patron in his or her home. Such convivial settings for the art of conversation emerged in Paris at the beginning of the seventeenth century.”  Robert Atkins in ArtSpoke

Is there a salon in your area where you can go to further your craft? Do you already meet with several of your peers to discuss your work? If not, I may have a solution you can use to create a salon in your area.

As you may already know, one of my affiliates is ArtBiz Connection, created by Alyson B. Stanfield. This is really a great site to bookmark for a wide range of arts-related marketing and business materials, be it photographic, oils, drawing, or whatever. Most of the material on this site can be easily adapted to fit just about any creative pursuit. I am borrowing the following information from this site, and just listing a few of the items:

Start your own photography salon:
1. Recruit a group of artists committed to selling their work, focusing on attaining goals, and helping each other. There should be a minimum of three in each salon (group)–each person committed to the nine sessions and the success of the other members.

2. Hold your organizational meeting. Make sure everyone understands their commitment to the salon and to each other. Select a group leader (usually the organizer).

3. Set up all nine meetings on your calendars. Meet every other week for the first eight sessions, and then a month later for the ninth session. This is important to do at the very beginning so that people can plan far in advance.

4. Register your salon (group). All members must register, with the leader registering through a separate link. 

5. Download materials. All materials are provided as both PDF and Microsoft Word files. Please note that we cannot provide technical support for these free materials. If you have difficulties, please contact your group leader. 

6. Attend meetings as promised, support each other, and prosper.

7. Let Alyson help you get free publicity!

All the material you will need to start your salon is available through the link below. I know that more than a few of you will be saying that you don’t want to have to follow a bunch of rules just to start your own group. I hear you! You can still go to the site and read the materials. They are all free! Alyson is very well known as a sharing kind of person. She and I both believe that in order to market your work, you shouldn’t have to take out a second mortgage on your home. So, go the site and take a look at the materials, and go from there. We also want to give back to the community that support us in our own individual creative pursuits.

You have nothing to lose and so much to gain by going to Art Biz Connection. If you don’t begin the New Year by doing something positive about marketing your work, then you will have no one to blame but yourself! Remember, all the material you will need is free. I plan on starting a group in my area. Yes. You can quote me on that! 

In case you are really wondering why Alyson would be offering this program for free when she could be getting megabucks, the answer is offered in the following quote:

I want to do everything in my power to encourage my clients and site visitors to rub elbows with other artists as often as possible. I am certain the personal rewards will far outweigh the costs of giving you this information.”

Good luck,
Tim

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